December’s Reimagining Democracy Workshop

Imagine that we’ve all—all of us, all of society—landed on some alien planet, and we have to form a government: clean slate. We don’t have any legacy systems from the US or any other country. We don’t have any special or unique interests to perturb our thinking.

How would we govern ourselves?

It’s unlikely that we would use the systems we have today. The modern representative democracy was the best form of government that mid-eighteenth-century technology could conceive of. The twenty-first century is a different place scientifically, technically and socially.

For example, the mid-eighteenth-century democracies were designed under the assumption that both travel and communications were hard. Does it still make sense for all of us living in the same place to organize every few years and choose one of us to go to a big room far away and create laws in our name?

Representative districts are organized around geography, because that’s the only way that made sense 200-plus years ago. But we don’t have to do it that way. We can organize representation by age: one representative for the thirty-one-year-olds, another for the thirty-two-year-olds, and so on. We can organize representation randomly: by birthday, perhaps. We can organize any way we want.

US citizens currently elect people for terms ranging from two to six years. Is ten years better? Is ten days better? Again, we have more technology and therefor more options.

Indeed, as a technologist who studies complex systems and their security, I believe the very idea of representative government is a hack to get around the technological limitations of the past. Voting at scale is easier now than it was 200 year ago. Certainly we don’t want to all have to vote on every amendment to every bill, but what’s the optimal balance between votes made in our name and ballot measures that we all vote on?

In December 2022, I organized a workshop to discuss these and other questions. I brought together fifty people from around the world: political scientists, economists, law professors, AI experts, activists, government officials, historians, science fiction writers and more. We spent two days talking about these ideas. Several themes emerged from the event.

Misinformation and propaganda were themes, of course—and the inability to engage in rational policy discussions when people can’t agree on the facts.

Another theme was the harms of creating a political system whose primary goals are economic. Given the ability to start over, would anyone create a system of government that optimizes the near-term financial interest of the wealthiest few? Or whose laws benefit corporations at the expense of people?

Another theme was capitalism, and how it is or isn’t intertwined with democracy. And while the modern market economy made a lot of sense in the industrial age, it’s starting to fray in the information age. What comes after capitalism, and how does it affect how we govern ourselves?

Many participants examined the effects of technology, especially artificial intelligence. We looked at whether—and when—we might be comfortable ceding power to an AI. Sometimes it’s easy. I’m happy for an AI to figure out the optimal timing of traffic lights to ensure the smoothest flow of cars through the city. When will we be able to say the same thing about setting interest rates? Or designing tax policies?

How would we feel about an AI device in our pocket that voted in our name, thousands of times per day, based on preferences that it inferred from our actions? If an AI system could determine optimal policy solutions that balanced every voter’s preferences, would it still make sense to have representatives? Maybe we should vote directly for ideas and goals instead, and leave the details to the computers. On the other hand, technological solutionism regularly fails.

Scale was another theme. The size of modern governments reflects the technology at the time of their founding. European countries and the early American states are a particular size because that’s what was governable in the 18th and 19th centuries. Larger governments—the US as a whole, the European Union—reflect a world in which travel and communications are easier. The problems we have today are primarily either local, at the scale of cities and towns, or global—even if they are currently regulated at state, regional or national levels. This mismatch is especially acute when we try to tackle global problems. In the future, do we really have a need for political units the size of France or Virginia? Or is it a mixture of scales that we really need, one that moves effectively between the local and the global?

As to other forms of democracy, we discussed one from history and another made possible by today’s technology.

Sortition is a system of choosing political officials randomly to deliberate on a particular issue. We use it today when we pick juries, but both the ancient Greeks and some cities in Renaissance Italy used it to select major political officials. Today, several countries—largely in Europe—are using sortition for some policy decisions. We might randomly choose a few hundred people, representative of the population, to spend a few weeks being briefed by experts and debating the problem—and then decide on environmental regulations, or a budget, or pretty much anything.

Liquid democracy does away with elections altogether. Everyone has a vote, and they can keep the power to cast it themselves or assign it to another person as a proxy. There are no set elections; anyone can reassign their proxy at any time. And there’s no reason to make this assignment all or nothing. Perhaps proxies could specialize: one set of people focused on economic issues, another group on health and a third bunch on national defense. Then regular people could assign their votes to whichever of the proxies most closely matched their views on each individual matter—or step forward with their own views and begin collecting proxy support from other people.

This all brings up another question: Who gets to participate? And, more generally, whose interests are taken into account? Early democracies were really nothing of the sort: They limited participation by gender, race and land ownership.

We should debate lowering the voting age, but even without voting we recognize that children too young to vote have rights—and, in some cases, so do other species. Should future generations get a “voice,” whatever that means? What about nonhumans or whole ecosystems?

Should everyone get the same voice? Right now in the US, the outsize effect of money in politics gives the wealthy disproportionate influence. Should we encode that explicitly? Maybe younger people should get a more powerful vote than everyone else. Or maybe older people should.

Those questions lead to ones about the limits of democracy. All democracies have boundaries limiting what the majority can decide. We all have rights: the things that cannot be taken away from us. We cannot vote to put someone in jail, for example.

But while we can’t vote a particular publication out of existence, we can to some degree regulate speech. In this hypothetical community, what are our rights as individuals? What are the rights of society that supersede those of individuals?

Personally, I was most interested in how these systems fail. As a security technologist, I study how complex systems are subverted—hacked, in my parlance—for the benefit of a few at the expense of the many. Think tax loopholes, or tricks to avoid government regulation. I want any government system to be resilient in the face of that kind of trickery.

Or, to put it another way, I want the interests of each individual to align with the interests of the group at every level. We’ve never had a system of government with that property before—even equal protection guarantees and First Amendment rights exist in a competitive framework that puts individuals’ interests in opposition to one another. But—in the age of such existential risks as climate and biotechnology and maybe AI—aligning interests is more important than ever.

Our workshop didn’t produce any answers; that wasn’t the point. Our current discourse is filled with suggestions on how to patch our political system. People regularly debate changes to the Electoral College, or the process of creating voting districts, or term limits. But those are incremental changes.

It’s hard to find people who are thinking more radically: looking beyond the horizon for what’s possible eventually. And while true innovation in politics is a lot harder than innovation in technology, especially without a violent revolution forcing change, it’s something that we as a species are going to have to get good at—one way or another.

This essay previously appeared in The Conversation.

Posted on August 23, 2023 at 7:06 AM68 Comments

Comments

Tom August 23, 2023 8:35 AM

I don’t think I agree with a lot of the premises here. There seems to be an assumption that people’s interests are more-or-less homogeneous – eg “The problems we have today are primarily either local, at the scale of cities and towns, or global—even if they are currently regulated at state, regional or national levels.” The idea that this constitutes a mismatch assumes that the solutions are either global or sub-national but this is trivially untrue. Many of the problems that politics tries to address don’t have a single “right” answer but rather different answers that different societies have arrived at as a combination of their history and the conditions they find themselves living under.

The European Union is busy demonstrating this at a large scale. On many issues, the interests – and often the views of the majorities – of Western and Eastern countries don’t really align. Both groups are actively looking for ways to subvert the institutions of the EU to either impose their views on other nations or to maintain the supremacy of the nation-state over the supra-national bloc. On some of those questions (free speech, gay rights, judicial independence) we might feel like we’re very much on the right side of a moral question; on others (how large a budget deficit is acceptable? what levels of taxation are valid? what support can the state give to private companies? what level of import tariffs are right for various goods?) there isn’t really a “right” answer but will depend on the circumstances of a particular group of people.

Picking people up and plonking them on another planet doesn’t somehow erase those national and cultural differences; the assumption that it would and that they would just assume Western values is frighteningly totalitarian.

Likewise the assumption that grouping people for representation by geography is a bad idea. The discussion of this completely ignores the fact that people who live in the same geography tend to be impacted by the same forces and have shared interests and shared cultural values. I suppose it’s possible that we could find a better thing to group them by, but I’m not convinced by any of the ones suggested. Are young people across the world really more different from old people than Americans are from Iraqis? Doubtful, in my view.

There is already a strong suspicion in those who value their cultural heritage that there is an ongoing push to destroy cultural heritage, rooted in the Marxist critique of the nuclear family and society as a mechanism of control. The kind of thinking behind this workshop seems almost designed to foster that suspicion.

Petre Peter August 23, 2023 8:50 AM

If the current system is not providing equality in front of the law, then let us replace it with one that does. Without equality in front of the law, we don’t have a system that is working.

Q August 23, 2023 9:18 AM

“How would we feel about an AI device in our pocket that voted in our name, thousands of times per day, based on preferences that it inferred from our actions?”

OMG! Fuck no. The opportunities for mischief are too numerous to enumerate.

Just the privacy issues and hacking potential alone would make all the big corps foam at the trousers just thinking of how much they could pervert the systems in their favour.

pdh August 23, 2023 9:24 AM

The first paragraph mentions forming a “clean slate” government, but the rest of the piece assumes that we’ve already decided that some form of democracy is the best solution. What is the basis for that assumption?

Jimmy August 23, 2023 9:50 AM

@pdh

There is none, clearly. It’s a rewrite situation. We’ve landed on another planet, but we’re somehow ignorant of American history, and there are no conflicting interests… This isn’t another world — it’s another galaxy.

Chris Becke August 23, 2023 9:58 AM

Obviously you want a meta-system, where people can vote for different systems. People who believe and want direct democracy can vote for a direct democracy meta-party. that party runs immediate polls on all legislation amongst its members, and the party uses its block vote to vote according to its members wishes.
Other meta parties can have platforms and can vote however their platform dictates.
Because voting can be perfectly captured, there is no need to have elections. Votes for a party or candidate can be transferred from a party to another party at any time, so the instantaneous membership of any party simply counts as their current level of support.

flashypants August 23, 2023 10:19 AM

“Or, to put it another way, I want the interests of each individual to align with the interests of the group at every level.”

That’s Communism. F that. FOREVER.

C. Odom August 23, 2023 10:51 AM

comfortable ceding power to an AI. Sometimes it’s easy. I’m happy for an AI to figure out the optimal timing of traffic lights to ensure the smoothest flow of cars through the city.

Maybe not so easy: this seems to be based on the false idea that traffic lights are only, or mainly, for cars. There are also pedestrians, bicycles, motorcycles, vans, trucks (perhaps even “road trains”: cabs with 3 or more trailers attached), public transit vehicles, and emergency vehicles. Several of these categories are expected to have special signalling, sometimes including signal priority or overrides. Giving AI an improper goal could cause a lot of trouble.

Another thing that I didn’t see mentioned, and I think is quite important, is deciding how much power should actually be in the hands of governments (as opposed to individuals). The Constitution of the USA says “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people”; but, in practice, the powers to define crimes and regulate interstate commerce are treated so broadly by courts as to make this much less meaningful that it seems. There are probably tens or hundreds of thousands of pages of laws that could apply to any ordinary person, and that such a person is “expected” to know and to obey. And they’re all applied based on physical location—or citizenship, which is ultimately derived from such.  When we’re doing so much stuff online, often via foreign intermediaries or involving “virtual” resources, that makes much less sense than it used to. John Perry Barlow’s “A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace” and Neal Stephenson’s “Snow Crash” had some interesting ideas related to this (despite being overly utopian and dystopian respectively).

Winter August 23, 2023 11:01 AM

@Anonymous

Who decides what constitutes

Are you one of those who believes there are no facts or reality, only opinions?

Or are you just trolling?

Newberry Springs August 23, 2023 11:02 AM

pdh: “The first paragraph mentions forming a “clean slate” government, but rest of piece assumes that we’ve already decided that some form of democracy is the best solution”

.

Yes, much muddled thinking in a rather naive understanding of the broad fundamentals of Government, Democracy, Society, Economics, etc.

Naturally, this “Workshop” produced no answers or even tentative conclusions about the issues raised.

No August 23, 2023 11:22 AM

I think fluid/liquid democracy has a real chance of being “adaptive government”. It allows a group using it to be a dictatorship when that is useful, a parliament when that is needed, and a direct democracy when a choice is personal.

We treat government as “one size should fit all” when it clearly isn’t true.

If we partition on “areas of authority”, we could have a “Dictator of Land Management”, a “Parliament of Foreign Policy” and a mass direct democracy of tax policy.

If we make it about “alliance building” instead of voting on issues directly, we even mitigate issues like “who proposes the slate of votes”

yet another bruce August 23, 2023 11:27 AM

These are exciting ideas. I especially like Liquid Democracy. Changing an incumbent electoral system, let alone the whole system of government seems very difficult indeed. The decision-making power rests with agents favored by the status quo.

Chelloveck August 23, 2023 11:52 AM

These ideas all have merit but I think all miss one important factor: How do you get the public at large to both understand the system and convince them it’s not secretly rigged against them? We have that problem with out current system in the US. A rather large percentage of voters have lost faith in it. How do you present any new system and convince those people it’s not going to be more of the same?

mark August 23, 2023 12:26 PM

A government whose goals are economic.

Er, from what little I know, one of the primary functions of the earliest, most ancient cities/governments we know of, in addition to mutual protection, was grain storage, so that in times of bad harvests, the government gave out grain, so that people didn’t starve.

Do you want to call that economic… or social?

Canis familiaris August 23, 2023 1:04 PM

Be careful that a Utopian society does not become a utility monster (Robert Nozick).

Winter August 23, 2023 1:51 PM

@mark

Er, from what little I know, one of the primary functions of the earliest, most ancient cities/governments we know of, in addition to mutual protection, was grain storage,

Actually, the oldest cities had a ritual, or festive, function and were not occupied all year long. They were also, like Stonehenge, not build by agriculturists but hunter gatherers.

Clive Robinson August 23, 2023 2:22 PM

@ Bruce, ALL,

Two rather important points you missed,

1, What is the level of resources
2, What type of people

If you have sufficient resources you can go back to a form of nomadic hunter gather existance where government as such is either by the group or by the tribal leader.

It’s how the majority of apex animals of which humans are just one of thousands of spieces exist.

But humans by and large are lazy when it comes to responsability outside of their immediate family or tribal group.

That is they want to leave the responsability to others, who almost by definition are not the people you should have as leaders. It’s why the thugish “King Game” started to legitimize “Might is Right” behaviours that are increadibly bad for society.

It’s why sociologists have the “Hawk and Dove” model of human society only it leaves out the third group who these days we would call techbologists.

We basically have a scale of people that ranges from sociopaths who generally occupy leadership positions they create, as the Hawks and want society to stay as it is or regress to ways that are more favourable to them in terms of status and power and are more than happy to use violence to achieve it. Then the scale goes through the bulk of people who are the Doves that basically want to have a society in which it is safe etc to raise families, they generally want society to become more conducive towards that, but mostly lack the ability to change society and move it forward, as such they are “place holders”.

But left out the model are those that are at the further end of the scale, those that for good or bad create force multipliers that do move society forward often very dramatically and over more frequently shorter time scales. Due in the main to better communications. As such these people are the ones that are the ones that take responsability for moving society forwards.

However whilst this third group creates, almost invariably it is not they that become the “Directing Minds” behind deciding how what they create gets used.

This is what does not get discussed very much, but the history of society shows that largely it’s the “Might is right”, “self entitled” sociopathic Hawks that decide how technology gets used. If they feel it is “getting away from their control” then the result is almost always unplesant and uses “guard labour” in ways that are later seen as atrocities.

But one thing you should look up in history,

“We cannot vote to put someone in jail, for example.”

Actually we do it all the time we call it “justice” via the “jury system” you should look at what the Chinese and Russian States do routienly, and the WASP nations do but more covertly.

Even in true democracies people voted to have others put to death on such charges as “corrupting the young” or similar for daring to question the society elites,

https://www.open.edu/openlearn/history-the-arts/culture/philosophy/thinkers/the-death-socrates

Drinking hemlock or having your heart torn out were your only options after such votes and punishment negotiations failed.

It’s said Plato kind of romantically dresses up Socrates death[1], indicating that he willingly drank the poison after being sentenced to death for his speeches and for his belief in humanistic and democratic principles[2]. So supposadly when he was ordered to recant in public and deny such democratic and humanistic ideals, he chose death…

We know as Socrates must have that the reality of death by hemlock is a protracted way to die quite unpleasently at upto two or three days. With your eventual death by slow asphyxiation as you loose the ability to breath and gasp for upto several hours untill your heart finaly fails. The only reason someone would chose this fairly horrendous demise is if the alternatives were in their view worse.

[1] It’s been suggested that Plato’s description of the poison if correct is more true of Aconite (Monkshood) rather than coniine (Hemlock).

[2] Others of Socrates’s followers, paint him somewhat differently. That is, he apparently openly espoused certain anti-democratic oligarchal views. The most prominent of which being the view that it is not the majority opinion that yields the correct path for society but rather genuine knowledge and professional competence, which he acknowledged was possessed by only a very few.

Amongst these was Plato who himself reinforced oligarchal anti-democratic ideas in his writings in “The Republic”, advocating rule by elite, enlightened, Philosopher-Kings…

This viewpoint reoccurs throughout history. So it rejects the Hawks and Doves and seeks after the noble technologists as leaders instead…

Mari Jackson August 23, 2023 3:33 PM

I wonder how different the conference results would have been if the 50 members had been selected by sortition from something other than Bruce’s contact list.

Kent Brockman August 23, 2023 4:03 PM

“How would we govern ourselves?”

Easy, chose someone to be Pharaoh and worship a sun god. As likely to happen as the mismash this conference produced.

Paul Lock August 23, 2023 6:32 PM

All too often these conversations advocate the launch of the baby and the bathwater.

I hope this audience will review the GCHRD site, since something closer to two pages of text added to existing laws would likely remove the 100 worst world leaders from office.

Fair elections, conflict of interest protections, prohibiting all corporate lobbying, transparency for everything but national security, plus some updated rights; just this list removes root causes of the majority the issues most of you have with democracy.

Fix the processes, don’t dig new rabbit holes.

Cheers
Paul Lock
GCHRD

Phillip August 23, 2023 7:13 PM

@C. Odom, All,

I agree, pedestrians, motorcyclists, etc.

Here’s another one. I have been using public transit for a while (from want or need should not matter), and noticed how for certain people, “They just seem to intuit how they need to get in the car and go do something.”

I know! It’s totally weird! – If for nothing more than, “nobody ever seems to notice.”

For systems to become honest, more and more must be taken into account.

Thus, it takes little imagination to see the entire noise machine work its way into a frenzy, to screaming bloody murder.

lurker August 23, 2023 9:35 PM

@flashypants

No, its communism, small “c”. Not to be mistaken with Communism which was used as a cover term for Bolshevism, Marxist-Leninism, Stalinism, or even Socialism-with-Chinese-characteristics.

I have Neighbors August 23, 2023 10:51 PM

“Representative districts are organized around geography, because that’s the only way that made sense 200-plus years ago. But we don’t have to do it that way. We can organize representation by age: ”

I stopped reading after that. Much of laws is around geography. If I want laws against something, and my neighbor (of a different age) wants laws for it – how does that work?

Say I want laws for 25mph speed limits. He wants 80mph. What’s our street going to have? Patchwork of limits 50 feet long?

Or building codes. Or prison sentencing guidelines. Or EPA regulations on new cars.

Jon (a different Jon) August 23, 2023 11:11 PM

@ C. Odom

Minor quibble:

And they’re all applied based on physical location—or citizenship, which is ultimately derived from such.

No. It is not ultimately derived from such. It may be (sort of) true for the USA’s “universal birthright” citizenship at the moment, but it is by no means fundamental to any or all citizenship. Historically, many people were citizens of where they weren’t, and/or not citizens of where they were, even taking birth location into account.

J.

Jon (a different Jon) August 23, 2023 11:23 PM

Slightly back OT:

What makes you think “One Person, One Vote.” is a good idea?

Given a question of medicine, shouldn’t those trained and experienced in the practice of medicine have a larger voice than the un- (or mis-) informed masses? Keep in mind the doctors and the nurses will be wildly outnumbered.

Similar with engineering? Does everyone get a voice in the building code, even if they have no idea how to calculate load-bearing structures?

This is, of course, wide open to accusations of ‘elitism’, but there’s a lot to be said for those who have learned a difficult and complicated skill. Joe down at the garage might be brilliant at fixing cars, but I wouldn’t trust him for a kidney transplant, neither a transplant surgeon for diagnosing a fuel injection failure.

Those accusations, are, by and large, horsesh–. The exceptions exist when someone skilled in one field assumes that makes them skilled in all fields, and thus claiming authority wildly outside their expertise.

J.

Winter August 23, 2023 11:25 PM

Our Host wrote:

Personally, I was most interested in how these systems fail.

How do you build a robust system? By making sure that each participant has more to win from contributing than from damaging the system, or as Our Host formulated it:

Or, to put it another way, I want the interests of each individual to align with the interests of the group at every level.

There are people who object to such a system as being left wing extremism, like @flashypants.

That’s Communism. F that. FOREVER.

Or who it as somewhat less extremist, like @lurker

No, its communism, small “c”.

It would avoid confusion in this discussion if we could agree on terminology. Systems like Our Host describe are not uncommon, eg, Catholic monasteries.

For this discussion, should we consider monks in a monastery to be:

  • Communists (with capital C)
  • communists (with small c)

That is, are monks, and Catholicism, their ideology, to be considered Stalinists/Maoists or just far left wing?

Winter August 23, 2023 11:47 PM

@jon (a different Jon)

What makes you think “One Person, One Vote.” is a good idea?

Other ideas have shown to be worse. For instance, the one dollar one vote, or one white male, one vote, and, eg, literacy tests, have historically shown to be utterly dysfunctional and leading to abject poverty and injustice.

The vote is ultimately for what happens to us, not others.

Who decides about what happens to me? Me, myself, and I.

Who decides what happens to us? Us, ourselves, and we.

I decide about myself with the same vote as you decide about yourself and we decide about ourselves. Any other distribution makes me decide more about your life than you yourself.

Godel Fishbreath August 23, 2023 11:57 PM

Monks in most religions are in small communities.
Small communities work as everyone can see the work of everyone.
It breaks down if the population gets too large, where that limit seems to be about 250 people.
So not quite communism of any kind, but its own limited thing.

Winter August 24, 2023 2:08 AM

@Godel

It breaks down if the population gets too large, where that limit seems to be about 250 people.

There are larger monasteries, but the question was, what form of C/communism are they?

Jon (a different Jon) August 24, 2023 2:29 AM

@ Winter

Yes and no. A few cheerful remarks:

1) That others have been shown worse doesn’t mean this way is the best.

2) Many of the examples you showed were exclusionary – If you were not a white male, then you didn’t get any votes at all – and I would very much hold that as terribly poor.* I’d hold that ‘one person, one vote’ is a minimum floor, not a one-size-fits-all solution.

3) That inanimate currency is considered a voting qualification is below contempt.

4) No. What happens to you is NOT entirely up to you if you wish to live in a civilization. For example, if you commit a crime, you don’t get to vote upon what happens to you.

A useful voting explanation might be that if you live in a small mining town, high in the mountains, and everyone in the town votes along with you that chucking your toxic waste into the creek is just fine. However, downriver is a large city that needs drinking water, and they can’t use it because you and your ‘Us’ have poisoned it.**

Again, at this point your, even your entire small town, ‘s vote is not relevant, and no, you don’t get to decide for yourselves what to do with your toxic waste.

This is fundamental to civilization. If you make it “All about me and mine!” then I shall decide a few things about you.

J.

  • Note that this in fact applies in the USA, for all ‘non-citizens’. This is a real-world present-day example of no, it’s not one person one vote, it’s one citizen per vote.

** For another real-world USA example, see what happens to the Colorado River after it crosses the American border. Granted, there’s no cities there – but imagine what would have happened if there were one, and how many Mexican votes would change that?

anon August 24, 2023 2:30 AM

It seems to me that if you’re going to have a discussion about proposing changes to a democracy, you should probably have that discussion /in/ that democracy.

Jon (a different Jon) August 24, 2023 2:48 AM

@ anon

Hehee! Depends upon the “Democracy”. Proposing dramatic changes in the Democratic People’s Republic of [North] Korea might not go well at all!

J.

(and no, the USA is not a Democracy, it’s a Republic, and a distinctly skewed representative Republic as well. 😉 England isn’t a democracy either, but protests there tend to be pretty well tolerated most of the time.)

Winter August 24, 2023 2:48 AM

@Jon (a different Jon)

That others have been shown worse doesn’t mean this way is the best.

Until you come up with a better one, it does.

However, downriver is a large city that needs drinking water, and they can’t use it because you and your ‘Us’ have poisoned it.

You forget that in a Democracy the “one person, one vote” holds for all people affected by the vote. The decision what to do with waste affects those downriver, so they have a say too.

That inanimate currency is considered a voting qualification is below contempt.

It has been the rule that having property or paying taxes was a requirement for voting rights for much of the 19th century. In 19th century Sweden, the number of votes you had was determined by the wealth you had. A single landowner could have more votes than all the other people living in his district combined.

For example, if you commit a crime, you don’t get to vote upon what happens to you.

Actually, you do. You have one vote at the elections, just like everyone else.[1]

[1] American states deny convicts voting rights to disenfranchise non-white voters. But that is far from common in the world.

Clive Robinson August 24, 2023 4:21 AM

@ jon (a different Jon),

Re : Evidence is not choice, and you don’t get to play.

“Given a question of medicine, shouldn’t those trained and experienced in the practice of medicine have a larger voice than the un- (or mis-) informed masses? Keep in mind the doctors and the nurses will be wildly outnumbered.

Similar with engineering? Does everyone get a voice in the building code, even if they have no idea how to calculate load-bearing structures?”

You are making a fundemental mmistake of conflating two stages in a “decision chain” process.

Early on in the decision chain those that are “trained and experienced in the practice” of a knowledge domain be it medicine, engineering, etc should present their findings in as clear, unambiguous, and neutral a way as possible.

Then further down the decision chain those who are “from the population in general who are effected by this” should decide what is an acceptable way to proceed.

Do not mix the two steps up they require different ways of thinking and acting.

The fact is though, we also live in a “resource restricted environment” where “any action that has a cost” on the principle of,

“Rob Peter to Pay Paul”

Effects all of society not just a select population or elite within it.

Look at it this way,

You can not have a road without land to build it on and further land to access it, also without it effecting all those in proximity to it for a considerable depth, who have to change the way they carry out their lives because of it.

How do you decide who’s choice is to be given preference, in essence who wins and who looses?

Arguably those closest are most effected so should have the greatest say. But then if it’s to join two great cities arguably small though each of their individuals say is, it is combined far greater than those close to where the road goes.

Hence the derogatory terms like “NIMBY”.

Currently we effectively “abdicate
responsability” to those who we are told should be impartial in choice and take all known things into weighted consideration to make the choice for the,

“The Collected us v. The Individual us”

Which is a variation on

“Responsability to society v. Individual rights”.

The real problem is our current system was designed to do just that to a given or select population ONLY.

That is an oligarchy, of supposed equals, see the theory of the “Iron law of oligarchy” developed just over a century ago by sociologist Robert Michels[1].

Worse it’s been corrupted so that certain “self entitled” people can and have reduced the “population” to what they see as the only people with “entitlement” in their view (ie as Shaw defined an “Intellectual Oligarchy”[2].

They have been able to do this because,

1, The system is hierarchical.
2, Most abdicate responsibility.

That is the majority at heart care only about what they see as their own rights and wants not their responsibilities to others needs.

The entire system in the US was set up by a group of individuals who had no wanting of what they saw as the “mob rule” of democracy, just the rights of a self appointed elite “population”. A population supposadly of “intellectuals” but actually defined by what was basically in their view the control of resources. The more resources you have the more control you have hence a “plutocracy”, which thanks to SCOUTS ruling on a question it was not asked to judge as part of “Citizens United” making corporations amoral persons cursed the US to become a “Plutocracy of Corporations”…

At root it’s just a variation on “The King Game” but without the direct hereditary component or now even “person natural”, and modernised such that the the entry requirment to the elite population of controling “Barons” is nolonger tied to land ownership but a legal abstraction called “property”. Which is effectively “Something that is both owned and can bring in unearned income” by “rent seeking”.

Go and have a look at “the estates of man” to see how little has realy changed (ie next to nothing of substance in a thousand or more years).

If you want to change it then firstly take the “benifit” out of politics, something nobody has managed in large scale in the entirety of mankinds recorded history.

Secondly get rid of hierarchy, because it only encorages nepotism and corruption, again something nobody has,managed in large scale in the entirety of mankinds recorded history.

But why have these two issues never be solved at scale?

Simple because on mass people don’t care, they don’t want the bother of “taking responsability” when you look around most do not even take real responsability for them selves. That is they will accept many bad things to quite significant levels rather than take the steps to improve things.

There is a saying about games,

“You have to be in it to win it”

If you chose not to play, then you can not win, but you can certainly loose without choice…

[1] The German born, Italian and later fascist sociologist Robert Michels concluded it was inevitably that any democracy of any size would become lead by “proffessionals” and thus become an oligarchy by inevitability of function hence “iron law”,

“Michels stated that the official goal of representative democracy of eliminating elite rule was impossible, that representative democracy is a façade legitimizing the rule of a particular elite, and that elite rule, which he refers to as oligarchy, is inevitable.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy

[2] George Bernard Shaw defined a new type of Oligarchy in his 1907 play Major Barbara. It was the “intellectual oligarchy” that was defined by it’s self preferential if not corrupt acts against the interests of the general populous. As Shaw noted,

“I now want to give the common man weapons against the intellectual man. I love the common people. I want to arm them against the lawyer, the doctor, the priest, the literary man, the professor, the artist, and the politician, who, once in authority, is the most dangerous, disastrous, and tyrannical of all the fools, rascals, and impostors. I want a democratic power strong enough to force the intellectual oligarchy to use its genius for the general good or else perish.”

Clive Robinson August 24, 2023 5:00 AM

@ jon (a different Jon),

Opps,

I left off a rider on my second foot note about George Bernard Shaw’s impassioned cry that ends,

“I want a democratic power strong enough to force the intellectual oligarchy to use its genius for the general good or else perish.”

Which is,

Shaw fails to note that societies forward progress is not due to the tyranical Hawks of Kings, Priests, politicians, and guard labour, or Doves of the oppressed common man, but to those scientists, enginers and similar who became societies Technologists, and it is their work that like a rising tide raises all “well found” vessels. Society as we know it or want it to be can not exist if they “perish”. That is “the general good” only comes to those with “eternal vigilance” who take responsibility for not just themselves but those around them both near and far.

Clive Robinson August 24, 2023 6:03 AM

@ Bruce,

Re : We get what we deserve.

“Personally, I was most interested in how these systems fail.”

They fail due to human failings which are on the list of the “Seven Deadly Sins”[1], but the solutions are not realy found in the “Seven capital virtues”.

Primarily they fail because we put,

“Percieved Rights over Social Responsability”

Thus “Greed and Sloth” rule the day for the majority of people.

The solution is all the citizens taking active social responsability over the percieved rights of individuals self entitlement. If done by the real oversight of eternal vigilance and remediation then many different processes will suffice.

But if those foundations of responsability and oversight are not present, then no process will succeed and tyrany of a self appointed oligarchic elite will prevail.

It’s why the saying

“The price of freedom is eternal vigilance”

Is always true, for those with either good or bad intent.

Because what is good or bad is a judgment made through a societal viewpoint by usually uninvolved observers of events. That is no act is always bad or always good, society when functioning equitably, through representative and assumed impartial individuals, judges by vote.

[1] Whilst set in an alleged “Chritian” view point, the seven deadly sins are not to do with any diety or religion, but common social morals. They are generaly given as,

“pride, greed, wrath, envy, lust, gluttony and sloth”.

Which are sort of contrary to the seven capital virtues given as,

“humility, charity, kindness, patience, chastity, temperance, and diligence”

However it can be seen that the sins are not balanced by the virtues.

C. Odom August 24, 2023 11:16 AM

@ Jon (a different Jon)

No. [Citizenship] is not ultimately derived from [physical location]. […] Historically, many people were citizens of where they weren’t, and/or not citizens of where they were, even taking birth location into account.

Can you clarify your comment? Historical practice isn’t very relevant to a conversation about what “is”, and I’m not necessarily saying people are citizens of where they were born or live. I could easily become a citizen of a certain European country I’ve never visited (because a sibling already did the hard work of certified translations etc., and got a passport), based on my grandparents’ former citizenship—that is, derived from their physical location 80 years ago, or their ancestors’ further back, not mine today. If I dug through my family tree I could probably get at least one more, for similar reasons. I have a(nother) sibling living in a country they’re not a citizen of—but, once they’ve lived there long enough (location, again), they’ll be eligible.

To my knowledge, though, geography almost always plays some role in granting citizenship, and is closely associated with its benefits and responsibilities. Granted, there are apparently 3 countries (Antigua and Barbuda; Dominica; St. Kitts and Nevis) that currently sell citizenship to people who’ve never set foot there and have no family ties. Is there something else I’m missing?

Winter August 24, 2023 11:41 AM

@C. Odom

Can you clarify your comment? Historical practice isn’t very relevant to a conversation about what “is”, and I’m not necessarily saying people are citizens of where they were born or live.

You are Dutch if your parents are Dutch, wherever you were born or have lived. Many countries have such arrangements.

People with Moroccan parents get a Moroccan passport irrespective of whether they ever have set foot there. They cannot rescind their citizenship, even if they desperately want to.

C. Odom August 24, 2023 1:35 PM

@ Winter

You are Dutch if your parents are Dutch, wherever you were born or have lived. Many countries have such arrangements.

Yes, of course. That’s why I said “ultimately”. How did your parents, or their parents, get to be Dutch? Trace things back far enough, and you’ll probably find that your first Dutch ancestor gained citizenship by being physically located in the Netherlands. Maybe because they were there when that nation-state was created, or were born there; maybe after immigrating and living there for a set period of time, and filling out some forms.

When the modern idea of “countries” spread, people didn’t travel much, and weren’t much affected by international laws. Now, though, these situations give rise to legitimate questions of fairness. A lot of countries aspire to be non-discriminatory, while in fact applying different standards to tourists and immigrants based on accidents of birth (location and/or ancestry). And most of us use foreign services via the internet, possibly paid services, so foreign laws regarding privacy and commerce can be important.

To extrapolate Stephenson’s dystopian idea, mentioned earlier, Facebook might become a government more powerful than the USA; a Facebook-issued passport might therefore be more valuable. (In the book, the USA was a minor power compared to the corporations, and one could argue that “log in with Facebook” is already a kind of internet passport.) To an American or European, who can currently vote for laws regulating Facebook, that might seem weird. As for the other 70-80% of users, of whom many live under poor imitations of democracy, Facebook imitating a democracy might actually give those users more power.

Winter August 24, 2023 2:42 PM

@C. Odom

That’s why I said “ultimately”. How did your parents, or their parents, get to be Dutch?

Ultimately, a nation has a geographical location. Only within its geographical borders does it’s laws hold and its government has power. But the state is free to decide who can get it’s citizenship. Quite a number of state sell citizenship to people who want it.

Citizenship only makes sense wrt the laws and policies of the state. In the end, the link between citizens and their country is the link between its laws and policies.

Outside it’s borders, citizenship only makes sense because there are treaties that give you privileges. With a Maltese or Cypriot passport, you can live anywhere in the EU and more easily in other countries. You might be able to pay taxes at the Maltese rate instead of the rate of the country you live in. You probably travel the world much more freely than with a Russian or Brazilian passport.

Citizenship started in the geography, but rather recent. Passports became a thing only in the early 20th century. Registration of citizens only in Napoleonic times. Our official Dutch family names were “invented” under Napoleon. Not everyone took them seriously at the time. It still shows.

Clive Robinson August 24, 2023 2:53 PM

@ C. Odom, Winter,

@Winter’s description is the nicer side of things…

Even today people are robbed of their citizenship rights. For instance being born in a refugee camp in a foreign country does not of necessity or in general confer a “birthright” citizenship.

Others born in a country but of the wrong ethnicity or religion get denied citizenship rights entirely and thus many other UN Rights such as education, right to other variois fair treatment we take for granted.

In Australia for instance many indigenous peoples were denied rights and persecuted well into “living history” and in the 1950’s they were still being killed without sanction or justice, raped etc.

The Australian Government still persecute not just mainland indigenous people but others in areas surrounding Australia and routienly steal their resources with little or no compensation.

Some religions deny rights including life to “non believers” as well as having a “footfall belief” that where ever an ahderant places a foot on land the religion claims primacy.

The atrocities committed under these ideas, also give rise to retaliation and similar persecution and it just spirals into the likes of ethnic cleansing.

All of which still happens. Some is the result of a Colonial past such as apartheid in Rhodesia and later South Africa. Then the tribal discrimination deliberetly engendered by the likes of Cecil Rhoads that gave rise to the issues in Rwanda, Uganda, Somalia, and many more including Kenya where people were beaten to death, castrated and in other ways mained and mutilated.

Part of the reason behind both the Korean and Vietnam wars was a colonial legacy (Japan and France respectively) going back long long before WWII. France still has many serious problems arising from it’s more recent colonial past and partly involving citizenship issues.

Every continent that has been inhabited for more than a couple of centuries has these problems and they still occure even in Europe.

Jon (a different Jon) August 24, 2023 3:54 PM

Pom tiddeley om pom pom, okay…

@ C. Odom

Yes, geography is related to citizenship, in many ways. But no, it is not ‘ultimately’ defined thereby.

@ Winter

That others have been shown worse doesn’t mean this way is the best.

Until you come up with a better one, it does.

This, of course, being the whole point of Bruce Schneier’s Workshop. Note that they didn’t conclude they’d ‘found a better way’, merely that ‘by looking at it, we are open to the possibility of there being a better way’.

However, downriver is a large city that needs drinking water, and they can’t use it because you and your ‘Us’ have poisoned it.

You forget that in a Democracy the “one person, one vote” holds for all people affected by the vote. The decision what to do with waste affects those downriver, so they have a say too.

Do they now? I gave you a real-world example of a place where no amount of voting will make a difference – when the problem is over the border. Maybe it would – in an ideal world where everyone can vote in every country. This will also lead into some remarks I have for Clive Robinson, so stay tuned!

That inanimate currency is considered a voting qualification is below contempt.

It has been the rule that having property or paying taxes was a requirement for voting rights for much of the 19th century. In 19th century Sweden, the number of votes you had was determined by the wealth you had. A single landowner could have more votes than all the other people living in his district combined.

I think this would qualify as one of those ‘methods that have been tried before, and found worse’ (except by those with lots of money, which may be why they keep trying to re-instate it).

For example, if you commit a crime, you don’t get to vote upon what happens to you.

Actually, you do. You have one vote at the elections, just like everyone else.[1]

[1] American states deny convicts voting rights to disenfranchise non-white voters. But that is far from common in the world.

Yes. But while that vote may apply to you, it then applies to everyone. Your own vote does not only affect you.

Something else fundamentally assumed by “One Person, One Vote” is that a majority of votes (50% of the votes plus one) carries the day. This assumption too is highly questionable.

@ Clive Robinson

I’m not going to use quoted snippets here. They’d be either massive blocks of text or distinctly out of context, so I’m going to try to consider your remarks as a whole. For the rest of you, read back up a few posts.

The problems with the experts stating their positions and then letting the rest decide are legion. On some subjects there may be legitimate differences between experts. On others, there will be differences between those who actually are experts and those who claim to be. And finally, if the experts’ unified recommendations are distasteful to the masses, they’re going to be voted against anyhow, damn the consequences.

Human beings are generally really bad at long-term planning, dealing with subjects of which they know little (“Enough to be dangerous!”), and short-term rewards vs. long-term risks.

Do the people closest to the road have more or stronger votes than any city dweller? Are you saying that ‘expertise in what this road will do to our farms’ means those farmers should merely state in very clear terms what will happen – to their farms – and expect the cities to rationally vote upon them? Or should those closer to the road have more say – more votes? More powerful votes?

Isn’t this a violation of “one person, one vote”?

Obviously the city dwellers, who vastly outnumber the farmers, really wouldn’t care about a few farms, they want their road.

Similar to a downstream city. If there were a large number of small mining towns that happened to have, collectively, more votes than the city, and all the small towns voted that chucking toxic waste into the creeks is fine, then the city, I guess, is just out of luck?

This leads to something else the U.S. Founding Fathers were desperate to prevent, that being a “Tyranny of the Majority”, in which a majority (not necessarily 50%+1, could be 2/3rds or anything else) in which the majority simply votes for what it wants, and the minority can go hang.

In fact, the majority could simply vote for the minority to be hung, and thus not a problem anymore, right?

“One Person, One Vote” has some very serious problems along those lines.

Now, however, you have another problem – how to prevent those who have power from accumulating more power? If the doctors and the nurses have power over all medical decisions, what’s to stop them from voting in massive pay raises for themselves? If the building inspectors get jealous, what’s to stop them voting that all hospitals are unsafe and all the doctors have to get out? And throughout all of this you have experts with highly motivated reasoning trying to convince a mostly unreasonable mass to vote for them.

I’m not sure this is a general rule, but it seems to me that power is a bit like gravity. It gets a little concentrated, then as more power accumulates in one place it’s like more matter, and so gravity goes up, power goes up, and it’s a spiralling positive feedback loop until all the power (with trivial exceptions) is in one place.

Solutions to that over history usually have been exceedingly bloody. I’d say they too “have been tried, and found wanting”.

Unfortunately, hierarchy is essential in any project more complicated than, say, cooking dinner (and sometimes even then!). In any organized activity there must be someone who can tell other people “You must do this now” and “No, you may not do that now”, even if they disagree, and make it stick, in order to construct a useful creation.

Or even operate it. Ships do not sail well as a commune, even if everyone does understand what the fundamental point is.

Which goes around again – those placed high in the hierarchy will want to be higher or otherwise profit off of their position, power accumulating power, until, well, a bloody mutiny.

I think that’s enough for now.

J.

Winter August 24, 2023 3:57 PM

@Clive

@Winter’s description is the nicer side of things…

That is indeed the downside of But the state is free to decide who can get it’s citizenship. The state can deny people citizenship, as the USA did with Native Americans until 1924, Japan with descendants of Koreans [1], Rohingya in Myanmar and elsewhere, Roma from Macedonia, etc.[2]

But every state manage to create cracks in their citizenship laws to let people disappear in.

[1] ‘https://stories.minorityrights.org/japan/chapter/foreigners-in-their-own-country-the-plight-of-ethnic-koreans/

[2] ‘https://www.unhcr.org/ibelong/stateless-minorities/

JonKnowsNothing August 24, 2023 4:59 PM

@Clive, Winter, All

re: On the vagaries of citizenship

In modern times, citizenship is often bound by the location of birth. When the location name changes then your citizenship disappears. As described by @Clive and in post-colonial geographic allocations, there are some people who are Not Citizens of any Country as that country no longer exists in the political landscape. This is sometimes referred to as Being Stateless.

Being Stateless is a function of laws as @Winter has mentioned. It takes almost no effort to make someone stateless, even in countries where doing so, is against their own legal doctrines. UK is quite good a rendering people Stateless.

When you are Stateless, you have no redress nor ability to get past the legal aspect of being Stateless. In the USA we have DACA, a form of “Immigrant Stateless But Here” policies.

Stateless does not mean lack of Citizenship. It means your citizenship is not recognized by the local government.

There is indirect citizenship as mentioned too. These are historic ancestral citizenship based on traceable or DNA recognition. In AU, the Government passed laws preventing people with Non-AU Citizenship from holding political offices. Unfortunately, it turned out that many of the politicians had Ancestral Citizenship that they were not aware of. It was a humorous debacle as they sought to have that Ancestral Citizenship removed.

If you are not a Citizen and you are Not Stateless, you fall into a different category: This is Semi-Citizenship associated with the Criminal Justice Systems. In the USA, if you are convicted of a “felony” crime you lose your “Civic Rights”. You cannot vote but you have to pay taxes. In many states there is No Restitution of Civic Rights and people have gone to jail for voting after receiving assurances from the Criminal Legal Process that their Civic Rights Had Been Restored. In the USA, there is no single method of recovery and in many State there is no path at all.

Beyond Citizen, Stateless, Ancestral Citizen and Revoked Civic Rights Citizenship remains the state most common: Disenfranchised and/or Slavery.

Slavery in many forms is quite well and making fantastic profits for the owners. We can see this in places where Passports are handed over to employers or an agency and people are not free to leave their place of employment or residence. Often this is noticed in the Agricultural Sector but it’s quite prevalent in High Tech. In the USA it’s called H1B Visa.

One person One Vote, is all nice in theory. In practice the definition of “person” is not so easy to come by. It is not universal in meaning and since it is a definition based noun, a change in the definition is all that it takes to de-person anyone. The CIA Rendition Program and Gitmo is based on the removing any and all aspects of what defines a “person”, to those they hold in their Black Sites. Rules, Laws, Customs, Humanity are of no interest to agencies like the CIA.

The History of South Afrika is a good example of how re-defining a word made mockery of the word itself.

===

ht tps://en.wikipedia. o r g/wiki/Deferred_Action_for_Childhood_Arrivals

htt ps://www.theguardian. c om/news/2023/mar/23/the-ciskei-experiment-a-libertarian-fantasy-in-apartheid-south-africa

  • In the 1980s, South African libertarians set up a deregulated zone that they sold to the world as ‘Africa’s Switzerland’. It was a sham, but with its clusters of sweatshops, it was very modern – and in some ways it anticipated the world we live in today

https://en.wikipedia. o r g/wiki/Ciskei

note: there are academic articles on economy of Ciskei but few libraries have them or will borrow them from other libraries.

(url fractured)

Clive Robinson August 24, 2023 5:19 PM

@ Jon (a different Jon), Winter,

“I think that’s enough for now.”

Yes, fingers can tire of typing, and also as I suspect is obvious by now every point has a counter point in and endless whirle.

So we get into a “Rock, Paper, Scissors” type discussion.

At the end of the day, I’m of the view thete is “no fair way” that is there will always be winers and always loosers in a “resource constrained” environment (hence my originally mentioning it[1]).

Thus the best we can do is try to formulate a “minimum harm” process. Which sadly we appear to be going in the wrong direction with, as the amount of legislation and lack of examination both attest too.

Taking out the money and slowing things down is one way I’ve advocated in the past, including putting a “sunset clause” in every piece of legislation (yes even that on murder). Such that we regularly reexamine and revise or strike it down. That is we need to realise that each and every law and regulation must be subject –as we are as living things– to “evolution”.

But I think the last word should perhaps be that of Winston Churchill from a House of Commons speach in November 1947,

“Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”

[1] It’s one of several reasons why I think we as a species for our own longevity should “get of this rock” and seek other resources including habitat. So that we don’t exterminate each other over the last green shoot growing out of the ground or by anyother of a veritable myriad of existencial issues we create.

C. Odom August 24, 2023 6:10 PM

@ Winter,

Ultimately, a nation has a geographical location. Only within its geographical borders does it’s laws hold and its government has power.

That’s a rather optimistic view. People outside the USA who’ve been affected by FATCA or the DMCA might disagree. (I’ve read of lawyers saying, regarding FATCA, that someone who thinks they might have an American ancestor is best off never investigating or talking about that; don’t tell a bank, and definitely don’t tell any border guard.) Then there’s war, which is basically countries applying their laws outside their borders. Sometimes the borders change afterward.

Anyway, a nation having a geographical location is true now. It’s not a fundamental tenet that has to be true forever. If democracy is to be re-imagined, especially if “radically”, that needs to be questioned too.

B. Franklin August 24, 2023 6:20 PM

“Indeed, as a technologist who studies complex systems and their security, I believe the very idea of representative government is a hack to get around the technological limitations of the past. Voting at scale is easier now than it was 200 year ago. Certainly we don’t want to all have to vote on every amendment to every bill, but what’s the optimal balance between votes made in our name and ballot measures that we all vote on?”

I will be honest I didn’t finish reading the article as I realized the foundational premise was wrong. Once a bad premise is made the rest of the logic has such a bad tilt no amount of pushing and shoving will straighten it up.

So, looking at the above premise let’s talk about the flaw that tilts the entire article. The USA is not a democracy. Now I understand this article is written about the idea of democracy in general, but the USA is not designed as a democracy because democracies fail spectacularly.

The USA is a Constitutional Republic. As a Constitutional Republic we use the democratic process to establish representative government, which is supposed to be for the people and by the people.

I am reminded of a story…
“On the page where McHenry records the events of the last day of the convention, September 18, 1787, he wrote: “A lady asked Dr. Franklin, Well Doctor what have we got a republic or a monarchy – A republic replied the Doctor if you can keep it.” Then McHenry added: “The Lady here alluded to was Mrs. Powel of Philada.””

Now why would my progenitor, a remarkable intellect, want a republic? And why would he be concerned if we could keep it?

Those are better questions to consume out valuable time and resources.

David Leppik August 24, 2023 6:41 PM

Given the ability to start over, would anyone create a system of government that optimizes the near-term financial interest of the wealthiest few?

The wealthiest few might. Yes, this is a hypothetical clean slate, but it presupposes a particular set of designers who have no special interests they need to preserve and who share, at least to some extend, your worldview.

There are all sorts of ethical considerations which you may consider straightforward, but are by no means clear if you truly have a clean slate.

For example, not every culture considers individuals the most important stakeholders. Families, religious institutions, or nonhumans (bison, trees, rivers, watersheds) may be considered as or more important than people.

Also, not every culture has a one body, one person perspective. Some consider multiple spirits/personalities the norm. (Last month’s Scientific American had an interesting article on that topic.) If you believe that, does that change how you vote?

The Quakers have a system of consensus based on the belief that God puts the Holy Spirit in every person, with each person having a different perspective. Thus, they try to reach a consensus which is agreeable to everyone—when they listen to the Holy Spirit. It requires a social contract which gives everyone a voice, but with the responsibility that they separate deep reflection from whims.

ResearcherZero August 24, 2023 9:40 PM

Hydraulic despotism is a social or government structure which maintains power and control through exclusive control over access to a piped critical resource, such as water. This can also include other resources, information or energy for example.

‘https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_empire

God Emperor Leto II’s stated goal was to “teach humanity a lesson that they will remember in their bones”: that sheltered safety was tantamount to utter death, however long it would be delayed.

Leto Atreides II was the third and last ruler of the Atreides Empire as Emperor and the first and only God-Emperor from 10219 AG until his assassination in 13728 AG.

cheddarmonk August 25, 2023 6:38 AM

Now why would my progenitor, a remarkable intellect, want a republic?

Because the dichotomy was, as explicitly stated in your quotation, republic vs monarchy. Not republic vs democracy. To say that the US is not a democracy because it’s a republic is to misunderstand the meanings of both terms.

WB August 25, 2023 9:03 AM

Ahh, the technologists. It’s ironic that the wildly naive idealism and trust in technology as some force outside of humanity you describe in the piece is that same force that would have us all doing work for parts of a block chain ledger or shitty pictures of monkeys. That distance was a prime mover in the form of government selected is all the proof you need that you have seen a stalk of grass and called it the forest. The founders would have laughed at the notion that everyone should have some say over how the machinery of government conducts itself. The President and in the not so distant past, the Senators are and were, respectively, not elected by the people. This had nothing to do with travel time. As imperfect as our system absolutely is, we have arrived at the place we are today due in large part to near abject apathy by most in the country. That it is too much trouble to go fill in a ballet once every 2 years should tell you exactly what happens if you were to put more importance and weight upon all the people on all things. You think that because you change the structure you will change involvement or the outcome. The dirty secret though, is that, again, for all its flaws, our system is largely built upon the fallback idea that if and when needed we can change the entire thing at anytime. Remember, the Constitution wasn’t the first law of the land. We don’t need to be magically transported to some planet of Original Position, we could literally change it all every 2 and 4 years. All of it. Everything. We could have a Constitutional Convention (for fun sometime take out the proper names involved in that event and change the geographical location, are you witnessing a coup?) any day of the week as well. The long and short of it: economics, politics, religion, technology, these are all things that do not exist. Except for our collective agreement that they do. Gold isn’t valuable. Indeed what is value to a planet or star or electron? All of this, our war, our peace, our gods, our riches, our poverty, our amazing joke about a jury being randomly selected; all are because we have made it so. To be blunt technologists have simply swapped the old gods for new ones of circuitry and logic, somehow not understanding you still made them, with all of your genius and all of your flaws, hopes and horrors, its all still what the minds of man have created and willed into being. We have as a species, daily, the choice to go back behind that veil of ignorance. Instead we go into a backroom with Foucault.

B. Franklin August 25, 2023 12:10 PM

@cheddarmonk So Dr. Franklin nor Mrs. Powel didn’t know about democracy and so it wasn’t an option for them? They didn’t know about the ancient governments of Athens? Or their own previous experiments in direct democracies in the American Colonies?

I think you misunderstand their knowledge of history.

Do you know what a pure democracy is? Have you a level of faith in the ability of a majority of people first to govern themselves let alone be responsible for the care and well being of their neighbors? I don not believe it is likely in most locales in the USA today. Perhaps it was in the 1950’s but today too many desire to live off of the government’s teat.

Pure democracy will destroy this country in less than a generation.

morganism August 25, 2023 3:14 PM

I think that geography IS the most important. Legal districts for voting should be based on regional watersheds.
That makes it easier to prevent polluting the Commons too.

bl5q sw5n August 25, 2023 4:35 PM

@ Der Kommissar der Utopie

Re: scientifically, technically and socially … geographically

We are on the Road to Nowhere, but on the other hand, This Must Be The Place.

That’s because while you can’t step into the same river twice, nevertheless wherever you go there you are.

The most important thing to remember is that The Future’s So Bright (I Gotta Wear Shades). And be sure to wear Sunglasses at Nght.

Ismar August 25, 2023 5:15 PM

If any improvement is to be made in this field, one needs to realise that most people do NOT make rational decisions when it comes to voting and are governed more by their emotions and short term self interest, rather than taking their time to analyse previous records of the people/ parties they are voting for.
This fundamentaly limits success of any technological solutions for improving the democratic process which are based on these false premises. Part of the solution lies , therefore, in implementing the system which will be taking into account previous records of the representatives/parties on a broad range of issues which affect most of us and award bonus points (and/or deduct them for any broken promises made) to be used in next election cycle. This could count for a percentage (say 50%) of the votes and the rest can come directly from the voters.

Josh August 25, 2023 6:43 PM

“Those questions lead to ones about the limits of democracy. All democracies have boundaries limiting what the majority can decide. We all have rights: the things that cannot be taken away from us. We cannot vote to put someone in jail, for example.”

This is incorrect. Any regime has ultimate power holders. For example, in the US it is basically SCOTUS, assuming constitutional amendment are no longer impossible.

Some would have say that the right to abortion cannot be taken away, and then SCOTUS took it. On the other hand, some think SCOTUS should take the right to bear arms away in a similar manner.

SCOTUS justices are elected by the president and the senate which vets them based on their pledges regarding some of those rights, and the president and the senate are elected officials by the majority.

So in practice the majority can decide on everything in the US through SCOTUS without any limitations and boundaries at all.

In other countries there are similar institutions like constitutional courts or parliamentary sovereignty.

Chris August 27, 2023 7:55 AM

This discussion reinforces my belief that whatever form government takes, it needs to have the least possible influence over the lives of the people it governs.

Winter August 27, 2023 8:21 AM

@Chris

[Government] needs to have the least possible influence over the lives of the people it governs.

This is an opinion you hear often from persons living in the country with the strongest army of the world, a large and heavily armed police force, an extensive legal system to enforce more laws any single person can count in a lifetime, a strongly regulated financial sector, and a working infrastructure. A country that also extracts on average $500B a year in capital from the rest of the world.

This is also an opinion with a long tradition. The slave holders of the USA South felt exactly the same way. Government should not influence the lives of the slaves in their fields, except when the ran away. Then government should bring them back.

David August 28, 2023 9:35 AM

@The Conversation (it seems) asked: “Imagine that we’ve all—all [sic] of us, all [sic] of society—landed [sic] on some alien planet, and we have to form a government: clean slate [sic]. We don’t have any legacy systems from the US [sic] or any other country. We don’t have any special or unique interests to perturb our thinking. How would we govern ourselves?”

My reply: If we watch what’s happening in the U.S. on Planet Earth these days, how you govern yourselves is all about the COLOR OF YOUR SKIN.

Um, wait; in the U.S., many years ago didn’t we FIGHT a whole horrible-bloody CIVIL WAR to put an end to that RACIST nonsense? Yeah… so what happened to that good outcome anyway? It seems to have vanished into thin air, where the corrupt Mainstream Media now lives. Sigh… Here we go again, history having to repeat itself.

Winter August 28, 2023 9:44 AM

@David

My reply: If we watch what’s happening in the U.S. on Planet Earth these days, how you govern yourselves is all about the XXX

But the world is not the USA. The current fight in the USA seems to be between people who want to go into the 21st century and those who want to go back into the 19th century. That is not the whole world.

More important, if we all have to start anew on an alien planet, We must all hang together, or most assuredly we will all hang separately. Humans have a tendency to die fast and early when having to fight for themselves in the wild, alien or not.

Gambler August 28, 2023 8:26 PM

Looking at the list of attendees from the last workshop. Microsoft, Google, O’Reilly, the hipster branch of mainstream media, the usual institutions in academia… Basically, this is a workshop for people who presided over the decline and degeneration of our communication systems for the last two decades. Now they want to tells us how we should be governed.

As a security technologist, I study how complex systems are subverted—hacked, in my parlance—for the benefit of a few at the expense of the many. Think tax loopholes, or tricks to avoid government regulation.

Ah, I see why you’ve invited people from Microsoft and Google. You needed someone with practical experience in these area. Good thinking.

cheddarmonk August 29, 2023 6:52 AM

@B. Franklin, I have no idea how you’re managing to read that into what I wrote. To observe that a conversation is specifically about the way in which the head of state will be chosen is not to imply ignorance on the part of the interlocutors about other aspects of national governance.

Jim Van Zandt August 30, 2023 3:28 PM

I think an effective government must mitigate conflicts of interest. Some can be avoided – by separating prosecution and trials in different parts of the government. You would like certification of doctors and approval of medications to be handled by medical experts, and certification of pilots and airframes by aircraft experts, but who should decide the relative amount of public funds to spend on each effort? Much less funding infrastructure vs. defense vs. policing vs. fundamental research, etc. And the conflicts of interest among government, large corporations, non-profits, and individuals.

name.withheld.for.obvious.reasons September 6, 2023 1:19 AM

You’d think I’d have plenty to say here, and I do. Will follow up this week with something useful, I hope. It will be a scathing critique of technocratic malaise, misdeeds, and egocentric tomfoolery inside our vaunted and heralded circles of intellectual grandeur and opulence. Not your usual suspects.

Don’t get me wrong, I am all about intellectual inquiry and discovery, heck my daughter thinks Weird Al Yankovic followed me around to make the music video, “Too White and Nerdy”.

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