Schneier on Security

Clive Robinson • November 25, 2021 2:52 AM

@ Ted, ALL,

The momentum really is piling against them.

Like a snowball down a mountain that creates an avalanche.

So the three obvious questions there are,

1, Who made the snowball?
2, Who chucked the snowball?
3, Why did they do what they did?

But… we also know that an avalanche can not happen unless a “tipping point” is crossed…

And we also know that for the tipping point to exist there has to be an instability build up in the environment. Where “potential” builds up by “restraint” and then some “action” releases it suddenly and to some observers violently[1].

Therefor underneath the event three precursor processors have to exist,

1, A continuous process,
2, A restraint mechanism,
3, A trigger action.

Importantly though the actual “trigger action” is almost irrelevant. That is if it’s not one thing then it will be another it is the “unknown straw that breaks the camels back” and just as arbitrary though many think otherwise[2].

The most important thing is the continuous process that builds, the falling of an individual snow flake is of little note or measurable effect. But when they fall in the billions over a period of time the effect not only becomes noticable, it becomes measurable as it builds.

It builds because of the restraint. Marbles in a jar are constrained you can build them up. Those same marbles on a flat polished wooden floor are not restrained so you can not build them up they simply roll away.

So the second thing to note is the method of restraint that causes the build up.

As such the build up has to be released, this can be slowely or quickly. As “prey animals” our brains don’t realy notice slow, but we do instictively notice quickly and respond to it.

So though we’ve noticed NSO it’s not that important, what is important is the growing process of fealings against our privacy being invaded it has been building almost unnoticed since the 1960’s. As for the restraint mechanism, well that is the desires of what might be termed “dark souls” and their quest for power or importance, it’s a mental disease when above a certain threshold. Unfortunately such people are attracted hierarchies where power accumulates at the top, the bigger the hierarchy not just the more power builds, but the greater the instability builds.

That is hierarchies are in turn avalanches or earthquakes building untill they are released.

The obvious solution is to stop hierarchies forming or growing, but in all of humanity so far, we’ve rarely seen how to do this.

One relatively modern example was the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND). Despite many attempts by politicians and those other dark souls behind them, they could not manipulate CND though they did try over and over. The reasons for these failures have been given by observers as,

1, Everything done in the open.
2, Respect for individuals views.
3, Respect for the majority choice.
4, Even core values were open for discussion.

The lack of restraint ment that power did not build up and the hierarchy remained more or less flat.

Is there a lesson there, well I’ll leave it upto to you to decide.

As where I am it’s nearly “nose to the grind stone time” and I have just enough time to grab a cupper of the hot brown stuff 😉

[1] Think of the energy in an earthquake, the stresses of tectonic movment restrained by friction build up and is effectively stored like that in a clock spring. So the process creates “potential energy”, that becomes considerable “kinetic energy” when the friction is over come at a point which then cascades to many other points and the chain reaction energy builds. This can be hellishly destructive, as somebody realised if you can reduce the friction, then the earthquakes happen more frequently but importantly the potential energy build up is less so there is less kinetic energy on release. So what could have ripped a city asunder, may be reduced to anoying little tremors. The same principle applys to avalanches and societal ills.

[2] Way to many people get this wrong not least chroniclers of events and historians especially they see the trigger as important like the fall of Rome and the Berlin Wall, Arch duke Ferdinand’s belt being to tight etc etc etc. It gave rise to the nonsense promulgated by the Dulles brothers in certain circles of their “single bullet that changes the world” theory (probably originally thought up by Allen Dulles, who was the longest serving head of the CIA).

Clive Robinson • December 3, 2021 2:24 PM

@ Ted,

Essentially Kerr and Lubin seem to be saying that NSO’s attacks are against the end-users, where Apple has no jurisdiction.

When it comes to Kerr I’ve read enough to know that I would “approach with caution”.

But lets look at it from a distance, does it matter if Apple have standing or not in one small part of the bigger picture?

The question is do they have standing as a legal entity? (which I rather suspect they do). Is there actually any reason why Apple can not “stand” for one or all users of it’s products? I suspect not if it becomes a “class action” on the users behalf…

But lets say there is some impediment, this simply raises the question of “How would a smart lawyer get around it?” As far as I remember Apple have more than one or two smart lawyers on their pay roll…

When it comes to law, one rule applies when you look at things “Never assume the specific applies in general”.

Orin Kerr has had a habit of talking very tight specifics in things he finds favourable to his argument, then expounding in general without joining the two.

As I understand it Apple are seeking an injunction against NSO. Specifically to stop NSO from using any Apple software, service or device.

If true that has nothing what so ever to do with Apple’s standing with respect to attacks on the “users” of it’s products.

Apple is simply enforcing the controls it has on it’s software etc.

Have a look in many End User Licence Agreements, which in the US are “contracts” you will find the software is NOT sold to the user and the user has very very limited rights. Whilst the supplier of the software can say to a user “stop using immediately” as and when they feel like it.

So yes I suspect that Apple will be alowed to procead against NSO, as the subject of Apples standing with respect to the users of their products does not arise.

But to be honest it’s not something I want to dig into very much. Because these sorts of court cases quickly have a habit of becoming not just rabbit holes but massive compleatly unproductive time sinks.

Further I suspect NSO will be “out of business” long before the case comes to a conclusion.

Look on NSO the same way you would suppliers of “knock offs” that are questionable under law. Such organisations tend to run behind a couple of layers of “front companies” that move money and assets away from sales and marketing. So if a challenge comes up there is no money in the pot or other assets, banning the front entity will not stop those behind things setting up new front entities and carrying on way more discretely. They simply have to make the product look sufficiently disimilar which is probably not that difficult.

So do not be surprised to see XNSO or similar pop up in the near future.

Clive Robinson • December 3, 2021 11:21 PM

@ Ted, Izzy, ResearcherZero, SpaceLifeForm, ALL,

… previous history that I hadn’t known. Some of which I see was discussed…

There is a lot more yet to be discussed.

1, It’s almost certain that US Officials have been targeted for quite some time.

2, It’s very likely parts of the US Gov and Executive knew this from NSA and similar activities and for various reasons chose to ignore it.

3, It’s very likely that parts of the Israeli Government were not just aware of this but actively encoraged it.

4, It’s more than likely that parts of the US Gov were more than aware that Israeli Government officials were endangering the lives of US Government employees and willfully chose not to take action to protect or defend them.

5, These behaviours by those in the US Gov were not in any way part of “National Security” they were for “personal ressons” involving Money, ideology, etc.

6, We have reason to know of these behaviours because US President Barack Obama made it public about the behaviours of the members of the US houses…

The question people should be asking is,

If the US puts, China, Iran, North Korea, and Russia on a “special list” for lesser reasons, why is Israel left off?

Likewise,

If the US has had witch hunts of those they think might be aiding or assisting Chinese and Russian interests, why have they not had the same for those known to be actively aiding and assisting Israeli interests in conflict with those of the US, it’s Government, and more importantly those US citizens employed by the US?

In short who controls the head and who the tail of this dog, and which is wagging which?